Author Topic: Arizona shooting  (Read 12816 times)

CindiK

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Arizona shooting
« on: January 09, 2011, 03:28:06 AM »
I've watched what I believe to be the shooter's YouTube videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Wether Whether or not this person was inspired by the divisiveness in American politics, he seemed to have been in need of some serious mental health care. Let's so do something about providing that for the good of all Americans.

My prayers for all involved - those shot, the one who did the shooting, those who love them, and the millions of people touched, in one way or another, by this action.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 06:01:32 AM by CindiK »
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goodstoryteller

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 04:36:39 AM »
In the US now Jail is the primary treatment for mental illness. Access to meaningful treatment and habilitation for those with serious mental illness has nearly disappeared. The continuously reducing amount of resources available is dwarfed by the size of the problem. 

goodstoryteller

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 05:08:25 AM »
This is a very sad and frightening event--I was just a few miles from where the shooting occured when it occured.  Gabby represents my district.

I think of Gabby's prophetic response to Sarah Palins putting rifle sight cross lines on her and several other Dems last July who had voted for health care reform.  Gabby's response to the ad was that "such behavior has its consequences."  Sarah of course did not have the maturity to understand that then or now.  What role did she play in the mass shooting today?  How responsible for the action today is Sarah Palin and her tea party cohorts?   

goodstoryteller

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 08:50:28 AM »


Here's another irresponsible candidate for public office.

Quote
During his campaign effort to unseat Giffords in November, Republican challenger Jesse Kelly held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event.

"I don't see the connection," between the fundraisers featuring weapons and Saturday's shooting, said John Ellinwood, Kelly's spokesman. "I don't know this person, we cannot find any records that he was associated with the campaign in any way. I just don't see the connection.

"Arizona is a state where people are firearms owners _ this was just a deranged individual."

Steven

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 02:04:41 AM »
Karl:
  This is, of course, an unspeakable tragedy which has rarely touched elected officials.

Quote
What role did she play in the mass shooting today?  How responsible for the action today is Sarah Palin and her tea party cohorts?   

Count me as one who has attended Tea Party events and voted for candidates endorsed by Tea Party factions.  I've even been within 30 ft of Gov. Palin at one event in 2008.  Full disclosure: financial support = $0. 

If you wish to hold me personally responsible for this horror due to my penchant for vilifying those I know are wrong & evil and blatantly encouraging violence, fine. I can live with that.

The erstwhile right-wing loonies as Salon have this take. Until today, I had no idea they were on the 'right', so to speak.
http://www.salon.com/news/gabrielle_giffords/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/09/loughner_not_though


Did Jesse Kelly actually host that fundraiser? These apparent critics seem to think not.  Stupid fundraiser, IMO.  I didn't know one could have a M-16 fully automatic legally.  Worse than stupid, IMO.  I saw one of my Congressman's aides after lunch. He pleaded "no comment" with a worried look on his face.

http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/giffords-opponent-jesse-kelly-held-june-event-to-shoot-a-fully-automatic-m16-to-get-on-target-and-remove-gabrielle-giffords/

 In 2009, there were 15K murders.  But not all used guns.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Estimates of gun ownership seem to be in the 10's of millions. 20-70M owners, depending. So, it seems there's less than 1 murder for every 1,000 gun owners. 

Quote
In the US now Jail is the primary treatment for mental illness. Access to meaningful treatment and habilitation for those with serious mental illness has nearly disappeared. The continuously reducing amount of resources available is dwarfed by the size of the problem.

Yup.
I'll forgo serious comments on this as I'm part of a support group for a couple of teens with rather unstable parents.  Its heartbreaking as "good" options seem impossible.   :-[ :'(

 ::)

In this region, we put our modest nut-jobs in group counseling sessions known as "City Councils", "Local School Boards" and "Township Trustees".   When that course of treatment proves fruitless, the most severe cases are sent to a special Federal Facility known to some as "Congress."  :o ;D ::)

Our new Congressman is having a "Meet & Greet" nearby tonight. I hope to show up & learn.

 Blessings!
I do not believe in miracles. I rely on them!

gary sechler

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 07:03:03 AM »
This same horse manure was started by Clinton after Oklahoma, but most folks were smart enough to realize that Janet Reno was responsible for McVeigh's overreaction, not Rush.  This guy doesn't seem sane enough to have a reason for his actions.  But it is easy to understand how the Democrats would try to irresponsibly use it to give our open airwaves a black eye.  David Brooks nailed it tonight.  Nobody else was capable of telling the truth.

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Denise Goodman

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 07:38:19 AM »
If you are correct re. "most folks," (which I absolutely doubt), count me as proudly in the minority.

Richard

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 09:20:38 AM »
Quote
...How responsible is Sarah Palin?
...
Quote
Sarah of course did not have the maturity to understand that [such behavior has its consequences] then or now.

What behavior? "plagiarising" a theme from  DNC campaign materials?

::) ::)

 ---------------------

 I suppose the Salon article  was about as good as it gets for Salon- and decidedly better than a lot I've heard in Churchland for some time--but still  a far cry from any serious analysis from the center, let alone the right. To say nothing of anything remotely like right wing loonies.

Quote
Iíll admit that my first thought on Saturday upon hearing that Gabrielle Giffords had been shot was that it was probably the work of a politically motivated right-wing extremist. And based on my initial conversations with colleagues and friends -- to say nothing of what I observed on Twitter -- I was hardly alone."
"It certainly seemed logical. "


It did? Based on what logic? His first knee-jerk reaction and "Initial conversations with colleagues and friends"-- and what they tweeted back and forth to each other?

Why wasn't it logical to assume it was a politically motivated left wing extremist who didn't like Gifford's opposition to Obama's immigration and border policies? Or isn't a political commentator for Salon even remotely aware of the politics involved with situations they comment on?

Maybe the shooter had been  listenening to UCC leaders calling everyone who supported Arizona's bill racist bigots.
Maybe the shooter was a UCC extremist who hated Giffords because she opposed the UCC led call to boycott Arizona.
Does this erstwhile commentator know anything at all about the political scenario he writes about?

Maybe it's the logic of someone who can report the comments of a friend of the shooter, calling him "left-wing", reports on his affinity for Karl Mark- but can't even begin to make any logical connections to that. Never mind all that-- If I can't make a rational argument to pin this on the right, and there's reason to believe he might have been on the left-----"Marx", "left-wing"--Uh oh-- can't go there. OK then... He must have been crazy.

Maybe it 's the "logic" of people who believe that this is a statement based in reality and events that actually happened:

Quote
There have been plenty of times since the fall of 2008, when Barack Obamaís pending election as president began stirring some hysterical and occasionally alarming rumblings from the rightís fringe, that Iíve wondered if it wasnít all leading to some act of violence against Obama or another major Democratic official."

Plenty of times??- so many that the writer couldn't find one, and linked to a false report? Nowhere near as many times as it began stirring some hysterical and ocasionally alarming rumblings not only on the fringe left, but from people and institutions you might think would know better.  But the writer- and a lot of others- would have to get outside the insulated circle of their own friends and colleagues and what they tweet back and forth to each other - to first discover what the facts are  in order to think about them logically.

Is he deliberately trying to incite people, "leading inexorably to some act of violence against [Sarah Palin] or some other major [non-] democrat official." 
Or is he just uttering corrupted extremist political ideology, disguised as "commentary"- with no knowledge at all of the political event he is commenting on, and simply giving another knee-jerk reaction based on the shared prejudice of his politically and morally blind circle of friends and colleagues?

The writer here is "hysterically rumbling" about a story long since discredited by the Secret Service itself after full examination. No, no one shouted "kill him" about then candidate Obama. The author might try to google the stories in his own links now and then. What he could learn  would make for some interesting tweets to his friends.


-How about  President (then candidate) Barack Obama's trash talking on the campaign trail, telling his supporters to seek out Republicans and "get in their face"-- and "if they bring a knife, we'll bring a gun"
How about the Democratic National campaign in 2004 issuing campaign maps with bulls-eyes on Republican held districts and calling on campaigner to go behind enemy lines?
-Where is the concern for Obama and the DNC inciting people to violence?


Enough with the willfully blind and blinding, divisive, dangerous, ideological crap about Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck instigating violence. There's certainly no lack of hysterical rumbling about it, for anyone who enjoys reading or tweeting about it with their friends and colleagues, so how about save it for your friends and those who enjoy it?
Save it for Daily Kos, they'll set you up with a linked blog space- or at least the New York Times--but keep it off church discussion boards.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 10:13:26 AM by Richard »

Steven

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 09:35:46 AM »
Richard:
  Oh my! Thanks!
In my world, if Salon & Mother Jones lean Right & Conservative, then we can expect Jeff Foxworthy alongside Ellen Degeneres at the next Synod.  ::)  Oh, and Rev. Wright will be doing a testimonial for G. Bush.  ??? :o ::)

Denise:

  Count me as part of your minority here. 

I've had the chance to talk to a federal ex-con who was incarcerated in the cell next to TImothy McViegh before his transfer to death row.   Based on his eye-witness testimony, I'm of the view neither Rush nor Janet should be charged with inciting the murders of McViegh. 

While Reno is guilty of many things in my book, for reasons unknown, McViegh's lawyers were unable to stick the blame on her or Rush. Shocking!

So, I accidentally showed up at a county Tea Party meeting tonight.  I'd been given the wrong directions to a town-hall mtg hosted by our new Congressman.  So, I listened in awe & wonder as this guy drones on & on about the need for voters to attend school board meetings, city council meetings & township trustee meetings.  He tells us the importance of character and working for positive goals & values.  They distributed copies of the US Constitution and "how to be a Precinct Captain" handbooks.  And I say to myself, "Yup, these folks are definitely racists encouraging violence."  :o ::)

I did get to shake hands with our Congressman later, with two armed campus security agents on either side.  He took lots of questions from allies and opponents.  One of the obviously more skeptical gents appreciated the obvious attempt to hear voters on all sides of the issues, but he will wait & see what the new guy does. One person counted 43 questions, for the record.  One of his staff announced they are planning such events about monthly in different corners of the District through the year. They call it "getting to know your constituents so you can represent everybody".   The Congressman was able to speak off the cuff & from the heart without tap-dancing, finger-wagging or name-calling.   It was an amazingly different person than the one painted by his opponent's TV & radio ads last Fall.  And, to top it off, several T-party groups had endorsed him. 

Now his opponent did have to go to the hospital during a loud & raucous campaign rally at the end of Oct. Clinton was the speaker. The then, Congressman's wife called on her way to deliver their 5th child.  ::) 

I certainly believe in evil & evil spirits.  However, I refuse to call "evil" someone for whom Christ died. As far as I know, that includes Gabby & Sarah Palin, Obama & Cheney, Rush & Pelosi, among others including you as you read this. 

So, I thought the days of negative stereotyping was over. Apparently, I'm wrong as I see over-reacting on several sides. Still, I hope & pray.

Blessings!
I do not believe in miracles. I rely on them!

Bobbi Cote-Whitacre

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 09:45:02 AM »
I certainly don't know exactly who's to blame for this tragedy (other than the obvious -- the guy who did the shooting), but I do question the motives (or perhaps sanity is a better word) of those who think carrying guns at political rallies is just fine or who talk about "Second Amendment" remedies if they don't get their way at the ballot box.  I realize that these are just intimidation tactics, but I'm sure that somewhere out there some deranged person hears these things and thinks he's just been given permission to go out and commit mayhem upon the body of some governmental official.

It seems to me that if all politicos toned down the red meat speeches and stuck with the facts we'd all be better off.  Bored, perhaps, but better off.

Richard

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 10:05:56 AM »
Richard:
  Oh my! Thanks!
In my world, if Salon & Mother Jones lean Right & Conservative, then we can expect Jeff Foxworthy alongside Ellen Degeneres at the next Synod.  ::)  Oh, and Rev. Wright will be doing a testimonial for G. Bush.  ??? :o ::)

Well, I think I get where you're coming from- except in my world-- as pointed out in my post- the author of the salon Post didn't write anything that was even remotely like "leaning right."

While taking the pretense of being some erstwhile kind of "honest liberal" and seemingly speaking out against the leap to blame the violent murders on the right- and Sarah Palin and the tea party in particular, he went on to justify it by the same old patently false and ideologically driven crap about the same incidents that, despite being disproven, keep being trotted out.

I've been appalled by the extent of this same blinded ideology based on patent falsehoods and the church equivalence of urban legends right in the midst of a tragedy. Krugman went to print before the bodies were even removed from the ground.
The NY Times went off the rails. Even Fox News trotted out their own house loons to stoke the fire on their Sunday report.



Enough of the crap. It's dangerous and deadly. I'm not going to trot out the stuff about concern for extremism on both sides. I'm concerned about the extremism that exists for real- not in theory and political commentary- or religious commentary.

There is no threat to anyone from Sarah Palin, or Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh, or the Tea Party. None of them have done anything to instigate violence anywhere.

There's a reason for the Biblical scriptures about false witness. It's deadly.

Richard

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 10:29:13 AM »
I certainly don't know exactly who's to blame for this tragedy (other than the obvious -- the guy who did the shooting),...

Well, look at the facts and use some logic. The police found a skull in his backyard tent. I blame radical extremist anthropologists.

 
Quote
I'm sure that somewhere out there some deranged person hears these things and thinks he's just been given permission to go out and commit mayhem upon the body of some governmental official.

Well, yes, but the real problem is that deranged people hear things and think they have given permission to commit mayhem whether anyone actually says anything or not. And if someone did say them, it doesn't matter what they meant by them them. That's why they are called "deranged" people.

And I wonder what some deranged person might do after hearing the UCC leadership call people bigots and racists because they want secure borders or are concened about what people of another religious persuasion say ( and do) about "infidels" and Jews.



Quote
It seems to me that if all politicos toned down the red meat speeches and stuck with the facts we'd all be better off.  Bored, perhaps, but better off.

Iwould even extend the call to tone down  red meat speeches to other callings in addition to politicos.
We'd all be better off if we stuck to facts,  even if politicians don't!

Steven

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 05:54:47 PM »
Richard:
  Thanks for your attempt at sanity.

I'm just wondering, who else here has faced violence because of their position/job or announced policies?  My file includes loaded hand guns, cement blocks though kitchen windows and all 4 tires slashed all on different dates by differently disgruntled neighbors.

Am I the only one who has taken the time to get to know one's assailants, befriending them as Jesus allegedly taught?

I would be glad to here the insights of a motivational psychologist as I fear many in this country are reacting out of fear & self-justifying ideology.

Blessings!
 
I do not believe in miracles. I rely on them!

CindiK

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 06:03:39 PM »
It's pretty simple. We have stereotypes to determine who's at fault.

  • Bomb: Muslim Extremists (that was a lot of the initial chatter for Oklahoma City).
  • Bombs used to be left wing extremists, but that seemed to slow down in the 1970's.
  • Guns used in multiple shootings: Right wing extremists (if they're white) or gang members (if they're not white).
  • Anything against a person or place associated with the terminations of pregnancies: pro-life Christians.
  • Serial killings: white males (usually loners, rarely politically motivated).
  • Kids being killed: pedophiles and parents (not politically motivated).

Fortunately, my partner watches a lot of cop shows, so I get to see a lot of this educational material.
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Jeff Fairchild

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Re: Arizona shooting
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 07:21:00 PM »
Whether or not this person was inspired by the divisiveness in American politics, he seemed to have been in need of some serious mental health care. Let's so do something about providing that for the good of all Americans.
As the facts continue to unfold in this case, it appears more and more likely that mental illness did play a huge role in this tragedy and it appears that there very well may have been a lack mental health care options to address that illness, at least on the part of the community college that may not have had any better option other than expelling a troubled student from the school rather than seeking to help that student obtain needed health care.

Quote
In the US now Jail is the primary treatment for mental illness. Access to meaningful treatment and habilitation for those with serious mental illness has nearly disappeared. The continuously reducing amount of resources available is dwarfed by the size of the problem.
There were changes made a few years ago that required health insurance to stop treating mental illness differently than physical illness.  As a result, my health insurance company no longer places an arbitrary limit on the number of reimbursed visits to mental health care providers.  While that is helpful, I suspect that there is still much more that could be done.