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Social Issues and Public Policy / Re: The Silence is Deafening
« Last post by jxrryk on August 27, 2014, 06:27:00 PM »
hence the issue, you are so assured in your beliefs that thinking outside the box causes you to belittle thoughts that go against the grain, cant you see this is the problem with the church today??  Jesus was a revolutionary, he turned the system against itself ....yet todays church wants to "engage in dialogue"  basically the church of today wants to talk, where is the action?

okay so i am out on the fringes, yet you are smack in the middle, neither of those locations are working, perhaps we need to meet in the middle, someplace strange and new to both of us, because the bottom line is, it isnt working for either of us, and if you come back with "everything is fine where i am" you are wearing blinders, I, know SIR, that I am blind
Theology Forum / Re: the Gospel of John
« Last post by gary sechler on August 26, 2014, 05:58:50 PM »
Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John chapter 1 28-36
28.  These things were done in Bethany, not at the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

This also explains why the translators did not use “Bethany” and created a whole new place, “Bethbara,” because Bethany was in the wrong place to fit the rest of their translation.  I’m sorry to report, that this is all major translators major fault.  The final
translation has to fit their concept of what the verse is supposed to say, even if it’s wrong, and as in this case, obviously wrong.

 29.  The next day John seen Jesus coming unto him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which will take away the sin of the world.

This could still be in Bethany, on the mount of Olives or in Jerusalem.  John & Jesus would have both been on their way to a Passover, with their disciples in tow, a memorable event.

 30.  This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
 31.  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
 32.  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
 33.  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
 34.  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

O.K. this is the only place this event is recorded in the Bible, which means that this is a method the author used in teaching about John and Jesus, that the author devised to help people accept that Jesus was the chosen son of God.  The Holy Spirit is invisible, it cannot be seen, it does not appear as a dove.  God could have given John a vision, of a dove descending upon Jesus but they were first cousins, and the chances that they knew each other, are quite good, they probably met each other every year during the weeks of the Passover, First Fruits or the feast of booths, when all families were supposed to go to Jerusalem to make atonement for their sins.  John’s father Zacharias was a temple priest, so the chances that John would be there is extremely high, and we know Jesus was there from scripture, the families probably met and feasted together. This scripture was probably created to cut off any suggestion of a conspiracy between Jesus and John, which would only have merit with those who don’t believe in God, and the day will come when they are non-existent.  Soon they will be extinct, all will be converted to Christianity.

 35.  Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

This would surely have been in Jerusalem.  Stood, means to stay, not to stand up.

 36.  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”

Again, this would have come direct from God through the Holy Spirit, it probably happened in Jerusalem during one of the feast periods, and would have happened to
increase the notoriety of Jesus, so that more people would begin to listen.  His ministry only lasted for 66 weeks (Daniel 9:26 three score and six), so it was necessary to create incidents among large groups of people where the knowledge of Him could be spread.  The three and a half years that are normally accredited to Jesus’ ministry, was the period of time from His baptism by John until His crucifixion.  The first two and a half years were spent studying the temple scrolls in Qumran, which is where He went when He went into the desert after His baptism.  John knew where the temple scrolls had been hidden away, because of Zacharias his father who was a temple priest.  Jesus’ disciples used the area before and after Jesus’ crucifixion as a place of study for their coming ministries.  John was buried in a graveyard there.

Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God
General Synod 29 / Re: Hi to all members on this community
« Last post by ulapento on August 26, 2014, 10:48:26 AM »
Hi i am new too so welcome aboard and hi to all the other members.
Theology Forum / Re: the Gospel of John
« Last post by gary sechler on August 25, 2014, 06:14:03 PM »
Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John chapter 1 20-28
20.  And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John was a full blooded Levite, his father Zacharias was a temple priest, so by heritage, John could have been a temple priest.  In the following verses, John confesses that he is doing a work for God as prophesied by Isaiah, he did not believe himself to be David returned,  but he was ignorant of the fact that he was Elijah returned, as was explained by Jesus in Matthew 11:10-14 & 17:10-13. 

 21.  And they asked him, What then? Are you Elias? (Elijah) And he said I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered, No.

“that prophet” comes from:

Deuteronomy 18: 15.  The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken;

“that prophet” was another reference to Jesus, and of course John was not Jesus.

John 1: 22.  Then said they unto him, Who are you? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What do you say of yourself?

 23. crying in the wilderness He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias (Isaiah).

Which comes from Isaiah 40: 3.  The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

 24.  And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
 25.  And they asked him, and said unto him, Why do you baptize then, if you are not that Christ, nor Elias (Elijah), neither that prophet?

John had answered them and answered them correctly, but they did not understand the answer, so he qualified his reply.

26.  John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there stands one among you, whom you know not;

It is possible that Jesus was, at that moment, standing there in the group on the side of the Jordan, who were either waiting to be baptized or had already been baptized.  He wasn’t, but the way the verse is worded, He might have been.  It was a possibility that would confound the Pharisees as they returned to Jerusalem.

 27.  He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John did not fully know or understand all that Jesus was going to be or what He would be doing in His ministry, or how it would end.  He only knew that He would be David returned, and He would be the everlasting king of Israel, but he had no concept of what that meant, just as most Christians today have no actual concept of what it means.  He didn’t know that he was here to fulfill Isaiah’s prophesy, until God through the Holy Spirit, put those words in his mouth, just as the words that Jesus was the messiah were put into the mouth of Peter.

28.  These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Here we have a translation problem, “Bethabara” does not appear anywhere else in the Bible.  The Greek word is Bethany, a community just outside of Jerusalem next to the Mount of Olives, and no where close to the Jordan. Of course if you take this information, define a word to include the author’s meaning, and it will make perfect sense.   For instance, “beyond,” actually means, “not at, but away” from the Jordan.  Most folks would read the verse, place the author in Jerusalem as a reference point, and conclude that John and the Pharisees had there meeting on the other side of the Jordan from Jerusalem, instead of closer to Jerusalem which is where Bethany is at. The author was nowhere close to Jerusalem when he wrote this, so we cannot take Jerusalem as a reference point for any verse, unless that is stated.  The verse can be cleared up by simply replacing “beyond” with “not at,” and the translation problem disappears:

Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God
Theology Forum / Re: the Gospel of John
« Last post by gary sechler on August 24, 2014, 05:18:58 PM »
Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John chapter 1 15-19 Lesson
15.  John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that comes after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John the Baptist is the one who bore witness to the coming of Jesus, even though he did
not fully understand that Jesus was a different David than the David John knew from reading the scriptures, because God had remade David and turned Him into the gold that God wanted to fill His Kingdom with.

 16.  And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Grace is one of the most misunderstood words in the Bible.  Most people today, have not done something that they, especially young people, feel they should die for, so when evangelists use that time worn phrase, “ saves us from our sins that we deserve to die for” it falls on deaf ears.  Until eternal life is fully explained and people understand that the person they now are, they are for one reason, the grace of God, for we have lived many lives, we were the souls who perished during the flood of Noah, through God’s grace, he saved our soul, allowing our personality to live again, while blocking our memories until such time as we are remade into the perfect spiritual image of Jesus, when we will be able to understand, accept what happened, and thank God for intervening in our lives and making us better people. “Grace for grace,” means that when we provide grace for others, we receive equal grace from God, that places a burden on us, to offer grace to those who are not deserving of it, just as God has to us in the past; however, we are NOT God, God can see the future and knows what a person is going to do down the road.  If we extend grace to someone who has not been prepared to receive it, we can wind up fertilizing evil.  Grace must come from God. 

 17.  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Not quite, the law was given by God to Moses, who gave it to the souls God had chosen that were ready to receive it as tests in their lives, and as we know all of them failed those tests miserably, because they all died on their 40 year trek through the wilderness.  Grace has always been present with God or none of us would be here.  This is an attempt to put all the grace of God on the cross, but that is not reality, yes Jesus’ sacrifice removed the need for a blood sacrifice to be made at the temple, and allowed God to remove the need for the temple, allowing the faith to cover the world, which was not possible as long as the requirement for a temple sacrifice and three yearly trips to Jerusalem remained.  The sacrifice was on half of requirement to have their sins atoned for, the other half was to make restitution.  The need for restitution still exists for full atonement, but God takes care of that through Justification, where we are taught not to sin in that way again, and God’s way is working a lot better than the old temple system.

 18.  No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

The Greek word translated “only begotten,” actually means “single generation,” which means that in this single generation has declared God (of Jesus).  This verse just illustrates how little the disciples understood about God, who He is and how He works in
the world.  The only part of God that cannot be seen, is the Holy Spirit, which is an invisible force, that is controlled by the angels of God.  The angels of God that make up the living body of God are seen everyday, by everyone in the world, they are just not recognized as being Jesus or God.  Every angel you meet is spiritually equal with
Jesus, and is His brother or sister in the Kingdom of God which surrounds us but is unseen. 

 19.  And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you?

Meaning what follows is from the history of John the Baptist.  When he started preaching in the wilderness and baptizing for forgiveness of sins, this was counter to what the law of Moses and the priests required for forgiveness, so naturally they had to scout him out and determine just what was going on.

Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God
Theology Forum / Re: the Gospel of John
« Last post by gary sechler on August 23, 2014, 06:29:40 PM »
Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John 1 814 Lesson
8.  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Which is what I just explained.

 9.  That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.

Yes, eventually when God’s work in the world is finished, the light of God that came through Jesus will touch every soul in the world.

 10.  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Well it is easy to understand, how the author and the theologians could make this mistake, just as most pastors and Christians do today.  The soul that was placed in Jesus’ physical body was present at the beginning of the world and was part of God, and may have played some unknown part in creating the world as we know it, but we cannot assume that Jesus created the world, because at that time every soul in the world was part of God, as He existed at that time.  When Jesus’ soul was Sanctified through Justification, just as every soul in the world eventually will be, He became part of God and therefore became God, but He had not been part of God since the time of Noah’s flood.  The world knew Him not, because they had not been through Justification which remakes souls into spiritual images of Jesus.  No one knows Him, until God prepares them through Justification to receive that knowledge.  Stretching the history of Jesus back to include the creating of the world is not possible, nor needed, once the concept of eternal life and the reality of the soul is understood, the fact that God did create the world is easily accepted, and the fact that Jesus is part of God.  If we say God, we’re talking about Jesus, if we say Jesus, we’re talking about God, but that only came to be after His death on the cross.

 11.  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

His own were the Hebrew people, and yes, most of them rejected Him, but again, that was the will of God, each soul had to be prepared through Justification in order to receive Him.

 12.  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
A few were prepared to receive Him prior to His coming, with final preparations being made during His early life, and they became His Disciples or followers.  No one can come to God unless they are prepared by God through Justification.  Their soul has to be cleansed of enough “desire to sin,” in order to face final Justification, which is what we see when Christians sin, which they do.  The further back in time you go, looking at the history of the church, the sins become more evil and more bloody, like the catholic church’s persecution of the reformed church, and the notorious inquisition, plus the continuation of slavery, and of course the Crusades.  Those who reach a point of cleansing where they are ready to accept God and strive to follow Him, will one day realized that they are sons and daughters of God.
 13.  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eventually, but it takes quite a bit of Justification before they reach this point.

 14.  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the Bible, normally when we come across scripture in parentheses it indicates that this is a clarification inserted by a scribe or Bible printer during the early days of Bibles being translated into English, and do not come from the author, so the original verse would read: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. The “word was made flesh” only means that Jesus was the prophesied messiah, David returned, that God through the pen of Isaiah and other prophets, had promised to send.  Meaning only, that when God speaks, His words become reality, His promises come true, and that is all it means.  Many centuries ago some “leader” who firmly believed in the literal truth of every word of the Bible, who did not understand that most of what is written is true, but it is a true parable, not true literally, for instance everybody easily understands that the good Samaritan was not a real person, but they will picture Jesus as the “word” of God and never understand the parable.

Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God
Theology Forum / Being Set Apart
« Last post by newnature on August 23, 2014, 04:01:12 PM »
Many in fundamental Christianity set themselves apart because in their minds eye, they believe they are more holy by doing so in the eyes of God. Many of them think they are more holy in the eyes of God, because they have achieved that set-apartness, and you other suckers out there, it is too bad that you are not on their level, because they are using their own measuring stick to see how holy you are. People setting themselves apart, is called self-sanctification! 

God is the Sanctifier, NOT the person. The flesh is never capable of performance to the standard of the perfection belonging to God himself, no matter how set apart we try to become. Sanctification is an already accomplished fact for each and every believer of Paul’s good news. God sets every believer apart, not some more so than others, but everyone who has believed what his son accomplished is set apart, it is a judicial transaction that takes place in God’s mind the moment we believe. 

Not being conformed to this world has to do with both believers and non-believers deciding to set themselves apart and setting the parameters for doing so. People can set themselves apart to live any kind of lifestyle they so choose as long as they choose to do it. Those who refuse to believe in the accomplishments of Christ are fully capable of setting themselves apart when it comes to the lifestyle they desire for themselves. The flesh is capable of behavioral change. Paul does indeed exhort those who believe his good news not to be conformed to this world, but that is not the type of sanctification in any degree or any manner that Paul has in mind, our righteous standing before God has already been accomplished through our being set-apart.
Social Issues and Public Policy / Re: The Silence is Deafening
« Last post by Richard on August 23, 2014, 02:35:52 AM »
Fer Sure!

If Jesus came back today He'd be saying "Come follow me, and I will make you hackers of websites" or "suffer the little children to come unto me and I will teach them mad computer hacks and how to commit treason and create turmoil"

UCC Café / What are you drinking?
« Last post by CindiK on August 22, 2014, 11:53:46 PM »
Theology Forum / the Gospel of John
« Last post by gary sechler on August 22, 2014, 08:02:06 PM »
Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John 1 1-7 Lesson

 1.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible.  What it means, is that when God speaks, it comes to be.  Nothing else

2.   The same was in the beginning with God.
 3.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things were made by God, and nothing enters this world unless God makes it.  He is the creator of all things.

4.  In him was life; and life was the light of men.

The life that became Jesus came to be in God, just as all life does, and Jesus’ life became a light to all of humanity. If you say Jesus, you are saying God, if you say God, you are saying Jesus, while Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, He is now part of God and therefore God.  All of God is not Jesus, because of the Holy Spirit which is a totally separate entity, which is fully controlled by God, and can only be accessed by God, or by going through God.  God is fully Jesus, except for the Holy Spirit, because of God’s requirement that all those entering the Kingdom, must be remade into perfect spiritual images of Jesus ( Romans 8:29)

 5.  And the light shone in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Darkness, the ignorance of God covered the world, when Jesus was born, and of course those who did not know God could not comprehend who Jesus was or the light that He was bringing to this world.

6.   There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Before Jesus could begin His ministry, Elijah had to return to prepare the world for the messiah.  As was prophesied by Malachi in the closing of his book, chapter 4:

 5.  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6.   And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John was a much better person than Elijah, even though they shared the same soul.  In 1Kings 18, Elijah puts 450 of Baal’s prophets to death.  In 2Kings 1, King Ahaziah sends 50 soldiers to arrest Elijah, and Elijah calls down fire from heaven to kill them.  Another

Interpreting the Bible the Gospel of John Lesson
50 came for him, and these too were destroyed by fire from heaven.  When Herod’s men came for John the Baptist, he allowed them to arrest him, rather than have fire come down and consume them.  He was willing to give up his life, rather than take the lives of Hebrew soldiers.  John the Baptist’s work prepared the way for Jesus who was a blessing for the world.

John 1: 7.  The same (John the Baptist)  came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John fulfilled this by preaching to the people as he baptized them which drew a crowd, and then Jesus came to him to be baptized and John introduced Him to the people, which is the fulfillment of the “bearing witness of that light,” which the author explains in verse 29 which we will get to shortly.

Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God
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