UCC Forums

This grows out of a continuing conversation I've had with James Rix that spans several thread topics as I review them going backwards.

All are welcome to share their experiences & insights, or not. 

2 or 3 Questions: 
1. How do I, (Steven) hear God speaking?
2. How does Scripture talk about God speaking?
3. How do others experience and/or discern God speaking?

Sub-questions abound regarding effective & reliable discernment of which I'll suggest these as openers.
"How do you know that its really God?"
"How do we balance healthy skepticism and faith?"
"How do we avoid self-deception or deceiving others or being deceived, wittingly or unwittingly!

My short, life story: I was once quite sure of myself & what God says. Then, I fell into confusion. Then, God saved me. Things were fine for a while. Then, I got too sure of myself & eventually became confused, lost, bewildered, befuddled, bespeckled and flabbergasted. I cried out & God saved me, again.  This cycle has recurred several times.

Currently, I'm in a phase of recovery having lost all confidence in myself, God & life following my wife's passing. Each of you in this group are partners in the Lord's continuing efforts to bring me to the next chapter of my life. Thank you! 

James quoted:
Me:
“Nope! Often, God overrules my gut feelings! That’s one of the ways I know its God/Jesus/Holy Spirit & not me!”
James:Could you expand on this some?  I’m having trouble seeing how you can tell the difference.  I know you suggested a new thread for this and there are currently lots of them active right now, so I hate to ask.  But I’d like to know how you hear God’s spirit.

Sure!

Here's an example from current life, fresh & hot off the press:

Yesterday I needed to write a letter of reference for a friend applying to be a life coach.  I had 1 or two shallow sentences in mind & didn't feel right about even those. Then, I just started typing & ended up with a page of very readable content. I emailed my friend who was quite humbled by my words of praise. I double-checked & concluded I could give specific examples for each of my comments. IOW, what I wrote was empirically based, not exaggerated or excessive.  Nor was it the result of a clear conscious  analytical thinking process as I was initially surprised at the whole thing. 

My friend replied that it is exactly what is needed even though she had failed to give me clear instructions in those regards. Thus, I could not have rationally determined what the organization needed due to my information deficit.

IMNSHO, hitting the mark that well is beyond human ability & represents "God speaking" in some fashion. & even if it is not "God", I'll take the humble route & give God the credit either for inspiring me or making me smart enough to be a good guesser. 


But, I don't ascribe such things to the Lord until subsequent evidence suggests high praise & I hit the mark well beyond my human ability.

That is one example & one type of "God speaking."

To make a formal study, I'd suggest reviewing a couple of New Testament passages for background:
(Or check out the current issue of Charisma magazine on The Holy Spirit)

I Corinthians 2
I Corinthians 12-14
Romans 8 and 12

go to
http://www.biblegateway.com/

& do a phrase search on the following:

"Word of the Lord"   223
"Word of God"          40
Prophet                  224
Prophecy                 20
Prophe*                 582
"God spoke"              6
"God said"              54 (28 times in Genesis!)
"The Lord says"     184 (all in the Old Testament!)
"The Lord said"      299, all but 11 in the Old Testament
"Holy Spirit"            93  (with 69 being in the Book of Acts!)
"God's Word"            6

Don't try to look through all of them! Skim & skip.
I've done that & written long research papers that are getting old & dusty!  My study of "Spirit" in the Book of Acts dealt directly & critically with the Greek text.  My research paper on Spiritual Gifts ran well over 50 pages & could have been much longer but time ran out.

Formally put, my experience parallels that found in the Book of Acts, Romans 8 discussion of the Spirit as well as I Corinthians 12-14 (as a unit!) 

But, I quote I Cor 12:

1Co 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

 1Co 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

 1Co 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

Whatever else this passage may mean, God is spirit & we dare not neglect paying attention to the spiritual side of life which is different from emotions, feelings, reason & intellect. 

Paul's words in I Co 2 have left me intrigued & wrestling with these words for decades as the implications appear profound:

1Co 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
        “No eye has seen, no ear has heard,  no mind has conceived
         what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
        The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

I encourage great care & drawing conclusions slowly, befitting my conservative style. 

Suffice it to say, I follow a Christ that is alive & is neither deaf nor mute!
The Lord I serve is 3 persons in one God, the Creator of all who is always speaking if our hearts are open to hearing.
He turns a deaf ear towards no one. But speaks reluctantly to those not inclined to listen.

Blessings!

One Solitary Life
Here is a man who was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in another village. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty. Then for three years He was an itinerant preacher.

He never owned a home. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself...

While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. One of them denied Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed upon a cross between two thieves. While He was dying His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth – His coat. When He was dead, He was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend.

Nineteen long centuries have come and gone, and today He is a centerpiece of the human race and leader of the column of progress.

I am far within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that were ever built; all the parliaments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that one solitary life.

This essay was adapted from a sermon by Dr James Allan Francis in “The Real Jesus and Other Sermons” © 1926 by the Judson Press of Philadelphia (pp 123-124 titled “Arise Sir Knight!”).

James wrote:
"One comment that jumped out at me in this discussion was the idea that God is changing.

Why would we presume that God changes when he has created everything including time itself? 

It doesn’t make sense for an entity with the capability of creating a universe would ever have a want or need to change even if he was bound to the same references of time that we are. 

Without time, there is no such thing as change.However, our ideas of the creator have changed since the beginning of documented history. 

Just the difference in understanding God changed dramatically from the old testament to the new testament. 

God didn’t change when Jesus showed us his capacity for love. So why should we stop there?

As some viewers may know, James Rix & I have had meandering discussions on several topics over the years.


This new thread picks up from the "Error-ridden or Inerrant or Something Else
" thread which was an off-shoot of "God's Image".


While he & I come from radically different faith backgrounds & seem to have vastly differing views on all sorts of faith & faith-informed issues, I've come to treasure his heart & mind & value him as a dear friend & prayer partner.


The next post will be his last post in the "Inerrancy" thread from which we will go forward as he lays the basis for a continuing search for truth.


I will comment in a separate post.


Blessings!
[/font][/color]

Is the Bible error-ridden or inerrant?  I vote for "something else"!


The question for discussion would be: How do you respond to those who claim the Bible has errors OR is error-free in some respect?

James & I have been meandering about the Bible's error in claiming mankind is made in God's image.


James: If you claim any statement of scripture is absolutely "error-free", you will get the same sort of questions from me as I'll start searching for the unstated assumptions & subconscious influences & biases which leave flaws in our views & theology. 


James linked to a website which claims to list lots of Bible contradictions.
 
It appears rather biased:


http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm


Here is a site which attempt to make the completely opposite claim & answer all possible objections:


http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/contradictions.html

Its a bit sloppy, IMO.  I list it as an example of a weak defense of the integrity of Scripture, embarrassingly so, IMO.

For the record, I find both sites sadly lacking on so many levels as defies description.


Apparently there are lots of these sites on both sides of this fence, so to speak.


For the life of me, I don't get it, on either side.  Both seem driven more by emotion/feelings than by faith or intellect or God or the Holy Spirit.  What am I missing?


If the Bible is wrong, why not do what most of the world does, ignore it & pursue what seems better. That's what Muslims, Hindus & members of other religions do, by & large.  Instead of attacking the flaws of other religions, why not advance your own version of how to  connect with God & live morally?


But, one need not attack the Bible in order to expose errant, shallow, mistaken, uninformed thinking about the Bible & its teachings.  Why inflame those for whom the Bible is a source of inspiration when the real enemy is what some call "bible-olotry" (sp?) 


On the other side of the coin, I don't get whom I shall call "hyper-defenders" of an inerrant Bible.  If the Bible is The Word of God, uniquely inspired by the Holy Spirit, safeguarded through the centuries & still anointed to change people's lives, than just let it do its job.  Why try to change doubter's minds with arguments when the Bible teaches its the Holy Spirit which changes people's minds & hearts?


Generally, I find the terms "inerrancy" and "infallibility" best left to seminaries and scholars. IOW, the terms are useless in almost all contexts in which I travel, being too complicated to explain. So, as a rule, I avoid the terms in preaching & teaching. I see great danger in telling people they can read the Bible & assume their understanding is correct. If asked, I'll discuss them with great caution & care. 

Blessings!

Good Post Richard!
I'm putting it under a new thread!


[size=78%]Happy Thsnksgiving All,[/size]Denise,The phrase, " God is still speaking", is not clear to me as it semms there is meaning beyond the face of it. Does it mean that God is adding to what He has said in scripture by amendment, deletion, ehansement, elaboration or correction?. Where does one find the recent revelations from God? Can one understand the new revelations without the gift of discernment from the Holy Spirit?Arthur recieves revelation from God but how are we to be assured of authenticity from him or from any of the many in history in this country who have made this claim?Are the people who  reveal Gods messages today as reliable as the writers of the bible or not? Is'nt  cannon law and the dictums of the catholic church the result of, "God is still speaking", to the pope or college of cardinals?I suspect that the phrase is used to disable the authority of scripture. If this is so, can there be any reliable authority, ever? If the answer is no then Adam and Eve were right and the one who influenced them as well.Glory be to the father and to The son and to the Holy spirit, Amen.
Rich

So far, having read the SCOTUS opinion, I like it. I still don't like the law.
I agree the 16th amendmend gives Congress nearly unlimited power to tax us citizens & discriminate against & for whichever groups it wishes.

Recognizing the Health Care Act's penalty as a tax poses huge problems for the Administration, IMO.

Without voluntary compliance, our whole income tax process becomes impossible. 

As a tax, people can & do avoid filing & paying taxes for years. There are also many exceptions. As a practical matter, there is no enforceable mandate unless you think a 2.5% tax will motivate healthy kids 25-45 to join up when healthy.

Blessings!

Art:

I, and it appears others, find your history lessons fascinating.  Have at it!

My point was that as soon as churches start developing their theologies into doctrines "that others are required to believe" then we become exclusive.

Good. So, you see a difference between "theology" and "doctrines", as in "indoctrination"?   I appreciate that but it seems difficult to split hairs without becoming, uhm, "doctrinal". 

Of course, being rigidly "anti-doctrinal" could be a doctrine of its own, as can the 6 principles in your signature which I affirm. 

It sounds, sometimes, as if you are opposed to the Pastor & Sunday School teachers attempting to teach what the Bible teaches & means in any way shape or form. I don't think that's what you mean.  Nor do I think you mean to discourage a group of Christians from sharing the beliefs & faith practices which they hold in common as a variation from other groups of believers.  Nor are you saying "Believe whatever you wish, just don't teach it to anyone as "God's Truth".   

If you are opposed to the style & doctrine that led to the Vatican & Constaninople excommunicating each other in 1054, you're on, with some concessions to the historical context.

If you're opposed to the "Doctrinalism" during the Reformation that included burning heretics at the stake in different wings of the Church, Protestant & Catholic, fine.

I don't see that prevalent today in the same way.  The exclusivity I find more common would be grounded more in dis-trust & ignorance of other branches of Christianity. A prime example would be some of the more primitive Baptist congregations which insist all members be baptized (or re-baptized) in their baptismal pool.  I view that as a doctrine created to protect the social order as opposed to theological insights gained after decades of reflection and discussion.

Thus, what are the limiting principles? How does a congregation teach and invite others to share their faith without having some "doctrines" in the sense of an agreed upon understanding of what the Bible teaches us to believe and how to live as followers of Jesus?

Keep going on your history lesson though.

I thought the Assembly of God traced its roots to the Azusa Street Revival???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival

Their website suggests no ties to anyone before 1900:
http://ag.org/top/press/organization.cfm

As I've no doubt some of the groups either kept no records or destroyed records of meeting upon completion, a healthy chunk of the Restoration Movement history would necessarily depend upon un-written oral tradition of unknown integrity.

Help us out here, as what you're sharing is fascinating.

Blessings!